Downwind sailing: Twin jibs with furled main
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Downwind sailing: Twin jibs with furled main
I know it's generally a bad idea in a fractional rigged sloop like an IF to sail too long with only the jib set and the main furled. I am thinking of doing some downwind sailing in the tradewinds with twin jibs on wiskerpoles. Do you think I would need to keep the main up (probably deeply reefed)? Or, if I sailed with a furled main, would I need to rig up running backstays that attach to the mast where the jib halyard comes in? In this respect, does sailing downwind without a main put less strain on the mast than sailing upwind would? Thanks for any advice you can give me. - Tom Kirschbaum, Feral IF 637
G'day Tom,
I've been wondering about exactly the same question. I spoke to a rigger who said that, in general, a folkboat with normal rig setup should not need running backstays. But at that time I did not think to ask him about the scenario with twin headsail or Twistle Rig.
Anyone know about the stresses this type of sailing, with mainsail lowered for long periods, would have on the mast. I have swept back spreaders which should help but I do wonder whether I'm placing too much stress on mast?
The fact that the folkboat is fractional rigged and therfore has a smaller headsail might mean that running backstays are not necassary??
Cheers
Matt
:D
I've been wondering about exactly the same question. I spoke to a rigger who said that, in general, a folkboat with normal rig setup should not need running backstays. But at that time I did not think to ask him about the scenario with twin headsail or Twistle Rig.
Anyone know about the stresses this type of sailing, with mainsail lowered for long periods, would have on the mast. I have swept back spreaders which should help but I do wonder whether I'm placing too much stress on mast?
The fact that the folkboat is fractional rigged and therfore has a smaller headsail might mean that running backstays are not necassary??
Cheers
Matt
:DMatt, I now have more insight into this subject, because this summer I sailed my IF from San Francisco to Hawaii, and the trip included 10 days running with twin headsails and furled main. Before going, I found some expert sailmakers and riggers who know the IF boat, and they advised running backstays. It turns out that twin jibs generate big stresses on the rigging - for example, one of the twins tore a turning block right out of the deck - so I think this was the right advice. They also advised that each pole be on its own track on the mast; apparently if you attach the poles to the mast at the same place, you risk the attachment being sheered off while underway.
Twin jibs are great if you are going downwind in the ocean. They will easily drive the boat at hull speed if there is any wind, and there is no danger of an uncontrolled jibe, a wrap around the headstay, sailing by the lee, etc. Relative to a spinnaker, they are hard to set or take down, and restrict your ability to maneuver to about 20 degrees on either side of DDW, but these are not big problems way out in the ocean.
My twins are 135% nylon high clew sails, hanked on to the forestay. (The position of the hanks were staggered so I could hank on both sails.) I had the topping lifts and foreguys led back to the cockpit, so I could raise the poles instantly and effectively reduce sail by "scandalizing" the jibs; this turned out to be a huge advantage because at night squalls came over about every 30 minutes.
I did have some problems when I tried to fly the twins with a reefed main, or fly one twin, or fly one twin with a pole and one without.
One of my buddies who made the trip in his Dana 24 (a 24 foot long-keel heavy-displacement cutter) had 150% twins on a roller furler; he simply rolled them up part way when he wanted to reduce sail. This might work on an IF, although it seems more logical on a cutter like the Dana that has two headstays.
If you want, I could give you the name of my sailmaker, and he would probably let you know the exact dimensions of my twins.
Best regards and good sailing, Tom Kirschbaum Feral IF 637
Twin jibs are great if you are going downwind in the ocean. They will easily drive the boat at hull speed if there is any wind, and there is no danger of an uncontrolled jibe, a wrap around the headstay, sailing by the lee, etc. Relative to a spinnaker, they are hard to set or take down, and restrict your ability to maneuver to about 20 degrees on either side of DDW, but these are not big problems way out in the ocean.
My twins are 135% nylon high clew sails, hanked on to the forestay. (The position of the hanks were staggered so I could hank on both sails.) I had the topping lifts and foreguys led back to the cockpit, so I could raise the poles instantly and effectively reduce sail by "scandalizing" the jibs; this turned out to be a huge advantage because at night squalls came over about every 30 minutes.
I did have some problems when I tried to fly the twins with a reefed main, or fly one twin, or fly one twin with a pole and one without.
One of my buddies who made the trip in his Dana 24 (a 24 foot long-keel heavy-displacement cutter) had 150% twins on a roller furler; he simply rolled them up part way when he wanted to reduce sail. This might work on an IF, although it seems more logical on a cutter like the Dana that has two headstays.
If you want, I could give you the name of my sailmaker, and he would probably let you know the exact dimensions of my twins.
Best regards and good sailing, Tom Kirschbaum Feral IF 637
Matt, I now have more insight into this subject, because this summer I sailed my IF from San Francisco to Hawaii, and the trip included 10 days running with twin headsails and furled main. Before going, I found some expert sailmakers and riggers who know the IF boat, and they advised running backstays. It turns out that twin jibs generate big stresses on the rigging - for example, one of the twins tore a turning block right out of the deck - so I think this was the right advice. They also advised that each pole be on its own track on the mast; apparently if you attach the poles to the mast at the same place, you risk the attachment being sheered off while underway.
Twin jibs are great if you are going downwind in the ocean. They will easily drive the boat at hull speed if there is any wind, and there is no danger of an uncontrolled jibe, a wrap around the headstay, sailing by the lee, etc. Relative to a spinnaker, they are hard to set or take down, and restrict your ability to maneuver to about 20 degrees on either side of DDW, but these are not big problems way out in the ocean.
My twins are 135% nylon high clew sails, hanked on to the forestay. (The position of the hanks were staggered so I could hank on both sails.) I had the topping lifts and foreguys led back to the cockpit, so I could raise the poles instantly and effectively reduce sail by "scandalizing" the jibs; this turned out to be a huge advantage because at night squalls came over about every 30 minutes.
I did have some problems when I tried to fly the twins with a reefed main, or fly one twin, or fly one twin with a pole and one without.
One of my buddies who made the trip in his Dana 24 (a 24 foot long-keel heavy-displacement cutter) had 150% twins on a roller furler; he simply rolled them up part way when he wanted to reduce sail. This might work on an IF, although it seems more logical on a cutter like the Dana that has two headstays.
If you want, I could give you the name of my sailmaker, and he would probably let you know the exact dimensions of my twins.
Best regards and good sailing, Tom Kirschbaum Feral IF 637
Twin jibs are great if you are going downwind in the ocean. They will easily drive the boat at hull speed if there is any wind, and there is no danger of an uncontrolled jibe, a wrap around the headstay, sailing by the lee, etc. Relative to a spinnaker, they are hard to set or take down, and restrict your ability to maneuver to about 20 degrees on either side of DDW, but these are not big problems way out in the ocean.
My twins are 135% nylon high clew sails, hanked on to the forestay. (The position of the hanks were staggered so I could hank on both sails.) I had the topping lifts and foreguys led back to the cockpit, so I could raise the poles instantly and effectively reduce sail by "scandalizing" the jibs; this turned out to be a huge advantage because at night squalls came over about every 30 minutes.
I did have some problems when I tried to fly the twins with a reefed main, or fly one twin, or fly one twin with a pole and one without.
One of my buddies who made the trip in his Dana 24 (a 24 foot long-keel heavy-displacement cutter) had 150% twins on a roller furler; he simply rolled them up part way when he wanted to reduce sail. This might work on an IF, although it seems more logical on a cutter like the Dana that has two headstays.
If you want, I could give you the name of my sailmaker, and he would probably let you know the exact dimensions of my twins.
Best regards and good sailing, Tom Kirschbaum Feral IF 637
Matt, I now have more insight into this subject, because this summer I sailed my IF from San Francisco to Hawaii, and the trip included 10 days running with twin headsails and furled main. Before going, I found some expert sailmakers and riggers who know the IF boat, and they advised running backstays. It turns out that twin jibs generate big stresses on the rigging - for example, one of the twins tore a turning block right out of the deck - so I think this was the right advice. They also advised that each pole be on its own track on the mast; apparently if you attach the poles to the mast at the same place, you risk the attachment being sheered off while underway.
Twin jibs are great if you are going downwind in the ocean. They will easily drive the boat at hull speed if there is any wind, and there is no danger of an uncontrolled jibe, a wrap around the headstay, sailing by the lee, etc. Relative to a spinnaker, they are hard to set or take down, and restrict your ability to maneuver to about 20 degrees on either side of DDW, but these are not big problems way out in the ocean.
My twins are 135% nylon high clew sails, hanked on to the forestay. (The position of the hanks were staggered so I could hank on both sails.) I had the topping lifts and foreguys led back to the cockpit, so I could raise the poles instantly and effectively reduce sail by "scandalizing" the jibs; this turned out to be a huge advantage because at night squalls came over about every 30 minutes.
I did have some problems when I tried to fly the twins with a reefed main, or fly one twin, or fly one twin with a pole and one without.
One of my buddies who made the trip in his Dana 24 (a 24 foot long-keel heavy-displacement cutter) had 150% twins on a roller furler; he simply rolled them up part way when he wanted to reduce sail. This might work on an IF, although it seems more logical on a cutter like the Dana that has two headstays.
If you want, I could give you the name of my sailmaker, and he would probably let you know the exact dimensions of my twins.
Best regards and good sailing, Tom Kirschbaum Feral IF 637
Twin jibs are great if you are going downwind in the ocean. They will easily drive the boat at hull speed if there is any wind, and there is no danger of an uncontrolled jibe, a wrap around the headstay, sailing by the lee, etc. Relative to a spinnaker, they are hard to set or take down, and restrict your ability to maneuver to about 20 degrees on either side of DDW, but these are not big problems way out in the ocean.
My twins are 135% nylon high clew sails, hanked on to the forestay. (The position of the hanks were staggered so I could hank on both sails.) I had the topping lifts and foreguys led back to the cockpit, so I could raise the poles instantly and effectively reduce sail by "scandalizing" the jibs; this turned out to be a huge advantage because at night squalls came over about every 30 minutes.
I did have some problems when I tried to fly the twins with a reefed main, or fly one twin, or fly one twin with a pole and one without.
One of my buddies who made the trip in his Dana 24 (a 24 foot long-keel heavy-displacement cutter) had 150% twins on a roller furler; he simply rolled them up part way when he wanted to reduce sail. This might work on an IF, although it seems more logical on a cutter like the Dana that has two headstays.
If you want, I could give you the name of my sailmaker, and he would probably let you know the exact dimensions of my twins.
Best regards and good sailing, Tom Kirschbaum Feral IF 637
Re: Downwind sailing: Twin jibs with furled main
G'day Tom,
Hey thanks for replying. Great insight to how effective the twin jibs can be on a folkboat. Sounds like a you had a realtively good run and the trade winds blew in the right direction - happy days!! I'd love to hear more about your trip. Have you set up a blog or anything? My email is mjtaylormusic@yahoo.com.au
I'll definately go with the running backstays given your experience. My roller furling headstay has 2 tracks, so I could effetively raise 2 twin jibs up the headstay then furl them as required like your friend on the Dana 24. I've been reading about the Twistle (some call it Twizzle) Rig. Have you heard of this? The 2 poles for the twin jibs are joined together and allowed to float as opposed to being fixed to the mast. SOme people (John Vigor especially) claim it is fantastic for trade winds and dampens the rolling effect of a boat in following wind/seas. How was the rolling on your trip?
I'd love to get you sailmakers detials.
I'm also researching Solent Stays ( a second remaovable forestay). Have you heard of these or did you see any in use on your trip? The inner forestay is connected about 6 inches below the headstay up the mast then connected to a removable tension fitting at the deck aft of the headstay. Usually it is only used when the winds blows up then the Genoa can be furled and a strorm jib set on the inner stay.
Look forward to hearing about your experiences.
Cheers
Matt
Hey thanks for replying. Great insight to how effective the twin jibs can be on a folkboat. Sounds like a you had a realtively good run and the trade winds blew in the right direction - happy days!! I'd love to hear more about your trip. Have you set up a blog or anything? My email is mjtaylormusic@yahoo.com.au
I'll definately go with the running backstays given your experience. My roller furling headstay has 2 tracks, so I could effetively raise 2 twin jibs up the headstay then furl them as required like your friend on the Dana 24. I've been reading about the Twistle (some call it Twizzle) Rig. Have you heard of this? The 2 poles for the twin jibs are joined together and allowed to float as opposed to being fixed to the mast. SOme people (John Vigor especially) claim it is fantastic for trade winds and dampens the rolling effect of a boat in following wind/seas. How was the rolling on your trip?
I'd love to get you sailmakers detials.
I'm also researching Solent Stays ( a second remaovable forestay). Have you heard of these or did you see any in use on your trip? The inner forestay is connected about 6 inches below the headstay up the mast then connected to a removable tension fitting at the deck aft of the headstay. Usually it is only used when the winds blows up then the Genoa can be furled and a strorm jib set on the inner stay.
Look forward to hearing about your experiences.
Cheers
Matt
Re: Downwind sailing: Twin jibs with furled main
Tom,
I just found the SSS site and have been reading about the TP Race... some great info! I couldn't find a blog or website for your boat? have you written about your experience anywhere online?
Cheers
Matt
I just found the SSS site and have been reading about the TP Race... some great info! I couldn't find a blog or website for your boat? have you written about your experience anywhere online?
Cheers
Matt
Re: Downwind sailing: Twin jibs with furled main
G'day, Matt!
I have not written a blog. The only thing online about my sail is what my wife posted on the SSS website after my satphone talks with her. There are some pictures on the web (on Norcalsailing and on the form of the SSS website) that show how Feral was fitted out. Rolling was not too bad; looking back though my log, it appears that the rolling was worst on the reaching part of the trip with quartering seas and in the doldrums. If I did it again, though, I'd have a gimballed drink holder. I had distained this as being too powerboat, but I found it very annoying that if I made a cup of coffee, I'd need to hold it in my hand until I had finished drinking it! My sailmaker is Kami Richards of Pinnapple Sails in Alameda, California, who I recommend wholeheartedly. They have a website that gives their contact info. In fact, given the financial situation and prospects for the US$, you might find it worthwhile to order your sails directly from him rather than just getting specifications and having them made elsewhere. I had not heard of the Twizzle rig; I'll need to read up on it. I thought of a solent stay, but decided that the IF is just too small for this. If I had a larger boat, I would definitely have rigged one up. Also, I'm not sure that you would need a small forestaysail in the IF except maybe in the most extreme conditions. There was a thread on this subject on this forum a few years ago, and the advice of folks who have sailed IFs on the North Sea about sails in rough weather was to use the working jib with a double or triple reefed main. My personal experience in winds of about 40knts is that the IF handles pretty well with a main (perhaps reefed) and no headsail. The SSS rules require a storm jib, so I have one on board. My experience with it, however, has not been good: Oddly, it generates more weather helm than the working jib, or no headsail at all! I wouldn't use it unless the main were deeply reefed. Maybe if it were set on a solent stay it would work . . . .
- Tom Kirschbaum, Feral IF 637
I have not written a blog. The only thing online about my sail is what my wife posted on the SSS website after my satphone talks with her. There are some pictures on the web (on Norcalsailing and on the form of the SSS website) that show how Feral was fitted out. Rolling was not too bad; looking back though my log, it appears that the rolling was worst on the reaching part of the trip with quartering seas and in the doldrums. If I did it again, though, I'd have a gimballed drink holder. I had distained this as being too powerboat, but I found it very annoying that if I made a cup of coffee, I'd need to hold it in my hand until I had finished drinking it! My sailmaker is Kami Richards of Pinnapple Sails in Alameda, California, who I recommend wholeheartedly. They have a website that gives their contact info. In fact, given the financial situation and prospects for the US$, you might find it worthwhile to order your sails directly from him rather than just getting specifications and having them made elsewhere. I had not heard of the Twizzle rig; I'll need to read up on it. I thought of a solent stay, but decided that the IF is just too small for this. If I had a larger boat, I would definitely have rigged one up. Also, I'm not sure that you would need a small forestaysail in the IF except maybe in the most extreme conditions. There was a thread on this subject on this forum a few years ago, and the advice of folks who have sailed IFs on the North Sea about sails in rough weather was to use the working jib with a double or triple reefed main. My personal experience in winds of about 40knts is that the IF handles pretty well with a main (perhaps reefed) and no headsail. The SSS rules require a storm jib, so I have one on board. My experience with it, however, has not been good: Oddly, it generates more weather helm than the working jib, or no headsail at all! I wouldn't use it unless the main were deeply reefed. Maybe if it were set on a solent stay it would work . . . .
- Tom Kirschbaum, Feral IF 637